The God Debate II

Another post from the atheist thread over at Via Chicago... the bold and italicized parts are the questions directed at me to answer. I would be interested to see if you guy have any thoughts.

[username removed for privacy], on 30 November 2009 - 10:10 AM, said:
If God is not responsible for man’s acts against man, and it’s all freewill, why does he intercede on some occasions, usually in rather mundane affairs, but not others, say, in Serbia, where infants were tossed in the air to be caught upon bayonets?


I believe that He knows about everything. Everything that happens in this world good or bad is known by God. God allows us the ability to disregard his commandments, and many people turn away from His truth every single second of every single day. The atrocities in the world are a result of people who are very far away from God. Such as the babies you mentioned in Serbia. Scripture tells that acts such as that are abhorred by God, and those people will have to answer to Him when the time comes. I can't say why God does or does not interfere in such things, because I am not God.

It all goes back to the story in Genesis, where Eve ate from the tree of Good and Evil, and as a result man was separated from God. Before that man walked hand in hand with God, and the relationship was so close, it was the most intimate thing imaginable. After Eve disobeyed God the entire human race became filthy and separated from God. God became so angry with how disgusting we were apart from him he wiped everything out (the story of Noah's Ark). Then when Christ came and died for our sins He restored our relationship with God. He was the missing link, and because He died all our sins were wiped away. Now, that's not to say all humanities atrocities were wiped away. Only those who believe... the people who have not accepted Christ are don't have the obligation to live as most believers do. Therefore, lots of people do terrible things, because they do not know the overwhelming love God has for them.

Now, this is not to say that believers are not without sin. In fact, the opposite is true. Believers are called to recognize their sin problem, and repent sincerely and often. I am the first to admit that I have a huge sin problem, and that fact makes me feel terrible, BUT because Christ died to atone for those sins, I am forgiven, and God's grace is bestowed.

Plus, you can't forger there is evil in the world (Satan) trying to undermine all the wonderfully good things God is doing, and I do believe 100% that he is out there, and real, and scary as all get out. p


And what of natural disasters that regularly wipe out scores and scores of individuals – if he is responsible for the earth and all its beauty, is he also responsible for its unstable plates, weather, etc?


Yes, He is. I can't explain it other than, this world, is His, and He allows things to happen for a reason. I can't explain what that reason is, again, because I am not God. A friend of mine explained it to me in this way a few weeks ago- it's as if the entire world is a tapestry, and we as humans are only able to see the back side of that tapestry. Everything is all jumbled up and a huge mess to our eyes, and we are only able to make a little bit of sense out of it in our limited time here on earth. God, however, sees the tapestry from the front, and sees the beauty in all things He creates.



Do you believe God has a plan for us – and if so, is that not a form of determinism, and if everything is predetermined, where does that leave freewill? If God’s plan is for me to die at the hands of a co-worker, in a hail of bullets, did the shooter act freely, or was he simply playing a role in God’s plan?


I can think of no better way to explain this than to sort of paraphrase C.S. Lewis.

In CS Lewis's book Mere Christianity, He explains that God's time table is NOTHING like ours. We can't even really understand it, because God knows everything that was, has been or will be. Think of it this way-- God is like the author of a book. He has characters, and He spent time carefully molding them and shaping them, and He knows every little thing about these characters. He know what makes them tick inside and out.

Even if you don't believe in God I recommend reading Mere Christianity, because it can shed a tremendous amount of light on the Christian worldview

God knows and knew all humanity before the foundations of the world. He knows that has happened, is happening, and will happen. Hence the word- omnipotent. All knowing. God certainly gives us the ability to make up our own minds about things, and sometimes we won't go in the way He would have liked (for instance, committing a sin), and that's all because we are human.

We are all fallen, and gross, at the end of the day nobody is better than anybody else. The wonderful thing about it is that if a person is willing to accept Christ, they find a salvation and a love beyond anything imaginable beforehand.

Granted, everything I just said is coming at you from a Christian worldview, so feel free to nit-pick it apart. I can say everything I typed I believe 100% with my whole being.

We must be no more than Bacteria in God's eyes. Why would he even deal with us?
Because He LOVES us. He created us to be an extension of His own image. John Piper talks a lot about how God really is a bit of a hedonist, and takes delight in al His creation. A lot of Christians tend to forget that God created humanity to be a reflection of himself in the very beginning, but because of terrible sin, we are waaaaay far away from that, every one of us is. Even the person who is front row in church every single day is still a million miles away from what God originally intended humanity to me.

Also, as far as the "I can't explain it" bit goes, it is true. I think God would be very, very boring if He allowed us to know every single intricate thing about why He does what He does. In all honesty, the thought of knowing all that scares the crap out of me, because God is the most powerful thing in the entire world. His mystery is part of the romance He wants to nurture with belivers. I can understand why a person who doesn't believe in God would want to have everything explained, but I don't think God WANTS us to know everything. That's part of what makes Him so amazing to me, is that I am NEVER going to understand Him completely, until at last I am at His feet in Heaven. But it's those little things I discover about Him every single day that keep reaffirming my faith. I think the same could be said for a lot of believers.

I must admit, I am surprised that some of the other Christians on the board haven't said a whole lot yet.... i'm not trying to be brash about it or convert anybody, just sort of explain things from the opposite side of the atheist spectrum. However, if anybody wants to know more feel free to message.

The God Debate

Over on the Wilco fan board I frequent, in the non-music topic section a topic was started talking about the new "militant" atheists, and how they seem to be a bit on the dogmatic side. The whole thing went pretty far, and I was surprised at the number of atheists on the board. This was my reply based on what somebody said about how they "worry about people whose motivation for kindness stems from the hope of making deposits in the stock of their afterlife."

The Bible says, "Good works alone are like filthy rags to God"-- to paraphrase it slightly. While, it is good to do things for others, and show true Christian love, ultimately (as I believe it) the most important thing is a true faith in God and Jesus Christ as Savior.

I've stayed away from this topic for sometime now, though it has been interesting to read things from an atheist world-view. Though, Donald Miller said once, that there are no actual atheists, merely people who God hasn't spoken to yet, or folks who choose not to listen to what He is saying.

I am a liberal Evangelical Christian. Born again a little over a 2-years-ago now. For me, the debate about whether or not God exists in non-existant, because I have seen His work in others lives, and most remarkably my own. It would be easy to write a lot of things off as "fate" or "circumstance", but that's where faith comes in, right?

The way I see it, even by an atheist saying, "I believe when we die we turn to dust", promotes a belief in something. Even if that something is a nothing, it's still a belief that it will happen. Some might even say that the little inkling of "nothing" might even be God talking to those individuals.

I don't get how people can look at some of the world's wonders and not understand that there is a God. I mean that with all seriousness too... so much beauty in this world, how did it get there? Who thought it up if God didn't? Seems way too complex to be "fate".

I'm interested to see if you guys have any thoughts. And if you are interested in reading the whole thread it is here: http://forums.viachicago.org/topic/42194-the-new-atheists/

i'd be lying if i said i didn't

for the first time in my twenties i lied to get out of a date. it isn't that the guy was not nice, it's just that i've only known him a couple days, and felt like things were rushing too fast. plus, with the possibility of chicago looming i do not want to get involved in a relationship. i am fine with being friends. i think i am over my "omg i need a man" phase. time to focus on my relationship with God and His plan for me.

i got into Moody, by the way. just waiting to hear about dorm space. Chicago looms large!!

God Will Ne'er Let You Down

Got a call from Moody Bible Institute. The music department doesn't want me for the Spring of 2010. I was devastated and ended up crying in Mr. H's office... I hate to cry especially in front of people I have a huge amount of respect for, but the moment of hopelessness was too much.

This week has been of the single most disappointing weeks of my life. Nothing going right… I guess we all have days and weeks that don’t really go our way. Even though I am mostly over the disappointment I still feel a little pang of rejection… over everything though this week’s experience has taught me that God has a plan, and it’s timing is undeniably not the same as my time table. I must be patient even if patience is not easy. Everything happens for a reason… God knows better than I do.

I keep going back to the Bible, and putting all my faith in what God is doing. When I was first learning about the Bible and God I was told the road would not be easy, and is more treacherous and narrow than the secular road. I was shown that first hand this week.

The biggest moral of my week is this… people, places, and things (basically all nouns except one) will let you down, but GOD will never ever let you down.

In my voice lesson I was preparing a hymn for the possible Moody audition called “Great Is Thy Faithfulness”, and it seems super appropriate considering the circumstances. Too bad I won’t get to perform it.

Mr. Hassevoort, Stephanie, Karen, and Bobula made me feel a lot better, and for that I am very grateful.

Much love
Sarah